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In true sports anime fashion, we can’t conclude a climactic battle without a flashback. Remember that time Subaru had to fight the mind-controlled Ginga? It’s kinda like that.
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Anonymous on Nanoha ViVid 85/86 double… Anonymous on Lyrical Nanoha – Franchi… Anonymous on Nanoha ViVid 82 – I… Anonymous on Nanoha ViVid 82 – I… Anonymous on Magical Girl Lyrical Nanoha EX…
Vivid Translations 
Not to worry – we Are nearly there!
However, I decided that I owed it to myself to remind myself why I loved the franchise so much, so I am rewatching the entire thing from the first season, so I probably won’t be quite as active as I have been for a few weeks – feel free to argue without me.
The first thought that struck me on rewatching episode one was how much better the graphics and animation looked, which surprised me because I know that academically speaking that is not the case. I think that it is mostly down to it being perfectly suited to the story and setting (though I do like the way magic circles gyrate into place, piece by piece, and the shimmering barriers that got replaced by those jagged layers); though the fact that I do not personally care much about the technical quality of the medium undoubtedly helped.
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Have fun. On the animation side pay attention sometimes to Nanoha’s hair animation. It can be particulary gnarly, 2-3 looped frames gnarly. Also notice how much those first couple of episodes untill Fate arrives feel off. Now think in your head which of these scenes are from before they got the idea to go mecha and befriending way for the show, and which were made afterwards to tie up those vanila magical girl scenes.
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The animation felt fine – I feel that if you are focusing on the technical quality of the presentation you are missing the point. It is good enough for me to get exactly the story they are telling, which is plenty good enough (since the story is good). On reflection, the graphics and animation is a little crude, but its perfectly adequate for it’s purpose. The presentation fits so well that it feels better than Strike, even if it isn’t. One of the problems of using higher quality graphics is that there are more little details that you need to get right to keep it looking good. Simple is perfectly fine by me.
I did not notice Nanoha’s hair being gnarly, though, and the first few episodes did not really feel off either. I did note that there were three points of escalation, dividing the series approximately into quarters. It started with the Introduction of Yuuno, Jewel Seeds and Raising Heart (an, by extension, Magic) whilst keeping the rest of the world relatively mundane. Episode 4 Introduces Fate, confirming that there are other worlds, other Mages, and that they are willing to interfere. This raises the stakes, but does little to change our view of the world other than to emphasise how different and individualistic different Mages can be. Episode 7 Introduces Chrono, and by extension the TSAB and dimensional space, though we don’t actually get the details until the next episode, along with some further exposition which clarifies matters. Episodes 9 – 10 sees Precia taking an active role in events, as the plan of action changes from ‘Gather Jewel Seeds’ to ‘Arrest Precia’, leading to the grand final showdown.
Watching it, it seemed a smooth progression to me, and reflecting on it reminds me of Sanderson’s Lectures on Learning Curves. Nanoha throws us some weirdness, and gives us just enough time to grow accustomed (not enough to grow comfortable) before throwing the next batch of weirdness at us. It keeps things strange without making them incomprehensible, and the progression feels natural. Whilst the escalation does change the tone of the series, it seems to be more as adding an extra layer of complexity that interacts with the existing world rather than overwriting it. Nanoha did not simply take a dark turn – it had additional, darker elements integrated with the extant setting and plot. These elements fit, they feel right, as does the lighter ending.
Ultimately, however, I still feel for the characters. The first season still has the power to bring tears to my eyes after all this time. That alone puts it leagues ahead of Strike.
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When I’m talking about weirdness it’s a bit weird to see Nanoha as a protagonist of a normal episodic Magical Girl show which the show was during those three episodes. The wierdest bit in particular is the gigantic tree episode and it’s fallout or better to say lack of it. Remember this is BEFORE they introduce the confusingly named “barrier” that drops magical things out of sync with the rest of the universe.
In episode three the downtown Uminari gets absolutely covered/strangled by a TITANIC bloody tree, and then a hugeass beam has to be fired to take it out. This is all in broad daylight. And NO ONE of the normals EVER comments on it. I kept expecting something, at least a wink and we never get anything. It’s a good episode apart from that, it further tackles the fact that Nanoha is fully into protecting her city and gathering Jewl Seeds and feels responsible for anything that might happen if they fell in the worng hands AND it starts the idea that nothing is truly out of Nanoha’s range, but that is the episode that most felt out of place to me. It’s as if they forgot to mention how they intended to return to status quo or they ripped the script from another show/plot or something.
On the other hand I do agree about the escalation. it’s well done. Nanoha starts with doing mostly PvE content before moving to some PvP to brush up her sklills before doing the Legendary lvl90 raid on Prescia’s place. In fact one of the things I liked about the show in general is that it does some thing really sensibly. There are all these OP and dangerous artifacts and out there there is an entire civilization based around magic, so of course they will have somebody in charge of collecting these and preventing damage caused by these, so OF COURSE they will arrive to lend aid if entire worlds are threatened. It wouldn’t be left only to a single lone girl.
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The ‘Normal Magical Girl Stuff’ may feel a little out of place compared to what we eventually got, but it still works for me – especially when taken in sequence. Having a significant difference between the beginning and the end is generally the sign of a story well done (have you ever read a positive review that could be boiled down to “Nothing Happened”?). Episode 13 felt a lot more like Episode 1 than Episode 10, which felt right given that the horrible threat had finally been dealt with allowing things to return to almost normal.
The Giant Tree thing does get mentioned in a couple of Sound Stages as I recall – they mention that multiple people report sighting a giant tree, though the location is inconsistent (remember, not one trunk but several) which is put down to hallucination (given that there is demonstrably no Giant Tree). The damage is also noted, albeit separately (I think the news reporter notes that it coincides with the Giant Tree sightings, though as they don’t take that seriously they don’t try connecting the two) – it is puzzling experts, who can’t understand why it happened. Fortunately the damage appears to be relatively light (in the sense that repairs rather than rebuilding are sufficient), albeit extensive, so repairs are underway. I’d have to double check if they officially put it down to a minor earthquake, but I can’t remember which Sound Stage it was.
The worst thing for me was some of the, quite frankly idiotic, decisions the TSAB made – I am glad that Nanoha eventually joined them as a tactical Trainer. She could certainly teach them a thing or two. The early weirdness, however, strikes me as being a result of the balance between the episodic content and overarching plot. In the first three episodes there was an overarching plot, but it was of minor impact leaving each episode as it’s own self contained story and contributing little to the overall plot. After Episode 4, the overarching plot got stronger and stronger, leaving less and less of the episodic nature – it’s less a change in nature and more a shift in emphasis.
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Huh I did not know that they tried to patch that up in SSs?! I just checked though and using a quick search I could find no mention of trees, and the only things that I found was a news report of the damage Nanoha left when she fought back at that veterinary clinic.
If you happen to find out where they tried to justify the gigantinc tree, would you mind letting me know where it is?
As for TSAB bad decisions, which one do you refer to? Leaving a powerful mage that knew how to dimension travel unattended and in no kind of barrier that could prevent her from escaping? Sending a bunch of probably B level top mooks against a deranged SSer, that has previosly proven capable of doing crossdimensional attacks against even warships, that was also being powered by a reactor?
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Oops, I hadn’t noticed the follow up. I’d been a bit busy – sorry.
Still don’t remember the details on the tree, but I know got mentioned outside that one episode. That’s going to keep bugging me now – I’ll let you know when I join the dots.
TSAB Bad Decisions: no, leaving Fate unattended was not one of the ones I was thinking of. Mid-crisis, with alarms blaring and reality (quite literally) tearing, it is quite understandable that securing a single, broken Mage was not their highest priority. Not to mention that she was drained, her Device had been damaged to the point that it was forced to dematerialise, her Familiar had willingly surrendered and was cooperating. Related – Lindy left Fate in the hands of her captor, Nanoha (another Very Powerful Mage), Yuuno (Not as powerful, but specialising in Barriers and Movement) and Arf (the aforementioned Familiar, who had proven somewhat Cooperative). Not alone and unattended by a long shot. Chrono, by this time, I think knew better than to argue when Nanoha volunteered to join his assault, and was well within his rights to assume that Fate was already in hand.
The first introduction we get is TSAB officers complaining about Fate and Nanoha’s erratic useage of their abilities (apparently, they don’t notice how efficiently they quell the rampaging Jewel Seed). Then Chrono bursts onto the scene and chews them out for using magic near a Jewel Seed (specifically noting that releasing magic near one is dangerous) – and then he shoots a haphazard burst of bolts in the general direction of the Jewel Seed! Firing Blind, no less, we are probably lucky that Fate intercepted the shots. Directly channeling hostile combat Magic into a live Jewel Seed seems like it would be suicidal at best. Not particularly good as a first impression.
The scene when they finally track down the final Jewel Seeds, and decide to leave all six rampaging and gaining strength/progressing towards a cascade detonation (which we are told would destroy multiple Star Systems at Best) seems terminally stupid. Especially given that there is no indication that they could have suppressed 6 Jewel Seeds simultaneously had they waited (given Lindy’s shock at Nanoha’s simultaneous sealing of a mere 3 Jewel Seed, most likely not). Even if killing Fate was that important of a goal, Surely preventing a dimensional dislocation should take a higher priority? And Fate was their best shot at achieving that Goal (at least in the immediate time frame).
I’ve also rewatched A’s through and am onto the Manga supplements. I’ll follow up when I’ve finished them.
Sorry again for the delay.
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I can’t agree that Fate was secure in any shape or form. They finally managed to capture this ridiculously powerful enemy mage that is capable of using transfer magic and has several times before proven she is quite able to do crazy things to achieve her objectives. LEAST they could do is separate her from her device and put an armed guard outside her room to monitor for magic spikes.
When you talk about Chrono showing up, you mean Episode 8? He didn’t shoot at the seed he shot at Fate who was reaching for it. And I don’t think he shot blindly, this is Chrono after all. He does nothing that is not calculated and precise. It is even possible that while he couldn’t see she seed, he remembered where it was, so he shot at the space where Fate would be if she was reaching for it. That would totally be a Chrono like reaction.
For the last one, I tried justifying it but you are right, allowing the rampaging of the Jewl Seeds just to let them do your work is playing with fire. I guess he was hoping that since Fate was alone she would get overwhelmed long before the seeds gathered enough power to do something really bad.
As for suppressing them, I think they would have just thrown more manpower at the problem. Fate’s issue when she was fighting them was more that she was one against six and was not able to dedicate time on binding, supressing and capturing one before others turn on her. TSAB doesn’t have that problem, they would have sent multiple mages per seed to attack at the same time all of them.
I have also been re watching the series. I finished As a while ago and did some writing on that: https://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?p=6006158#post6006158
no bites I’m afraid.
Currently I’m re-watching StrikerS which I liked (which is not a sentiment that WAS shared by most of the community) even though I was dissapointed by it’s many flaws and unfulfilled promises. And this time since I’m going through it slowly I’m doing a writeup on what I liked about it and my thoughts and such. My god is the writeup long (25k+ words) and it’s only episode 19.
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Quick reply, since I’m going to be away from my computer for a few days and may not be able to reply fully:
I wasn’t trying to suggest that Fate was secure but, rather, that at the time securing Fate was (rightly IMO) not their highest priority. I also get the impression that the ship’s entire combat compliment (- Crono) had been zapped into the medbay by Precia (so unavailble for guard duty and useless against Fate if she tries anything). Note that, after things calm down, she is secured in a cell properly.
Crono shooting blindly – he was in a thick cloud and has given no indication of x-ray vision, Also, Fate didn’t fly strait for the Jewel Seed – she started for Arf before changing course. Chrono firing a leathal flurry in the general direction of the Jewel Seed never struck me as a clever move, even if he could see (and firing blind makes it worse)
Interesting writeup on animesuki – did you do one for the first season or skip strait to A’s?
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I… I don’t belive that they sent their ENTIRE complement of combat mages. Sure they probably sent their strike team, but there should probably be more less capable ones that would be able to monitor a DEVICELESS girl and call for reinforcements if anything happens. But I have no proof for it so I’ll leave it at that.
As for Chrono, it’s Chrono. In his case I’ll believe any kind of improbable ruthless trick shots because his entire thing is that he fights smarter not stronger and that is his only way of fighting at the level of Nanoha and Fate. Hell I’ll even believe that he fired in the general direction of the Seed because either a) he supresses Fate if he doesn’t hit the seed or b) it activates which makes it impossible for Fate to just grab it and dash away.
It started with me acquiring the Movie 1st and then going for the second season. The idea was to go through the entire series and then do my second thought on Strike. Problem is I’m going to be stuck on StrikerS for a while trying to explain why I like it in my eyes and defend it, and that is going to take a while. I have been posting the writing in peaces on nanofate for a while but I’m only like 20% in because I have to defend my points, and since I like it I feel the need to provide counterargument to EVERYTHING.
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Anyone short of Yuuno would probably be useless against Fate, even without Bardiche – she casts transfer magic without setting up her device (and the spell to open the Garden of Time’s wards at the same time) and is shown in the sound stages to have been learning and practising combat magic before Linith crafts Bardiche for her. She’s no SS at this point, but she could probably mop the floor with the strike team we see almost as easily as Precia (I’m not so sure about the twin dimension-skipping bombardments though…) with or without Bardiche. The few Mages with the Capacity to restrain her were also the few who stood a chance at dealing with the immediate threats of a dimensional dislocation and Precia. Context matters.
It may not have been the wisest idea, but leaving Fate alone never struck me as particularly stupid either. Story aside, her device was broken and in need of repair, she no longer had the Jewel Seeds that threatened to rip space-time a new one, and the TSAB’s new target did. Fate was originally left in the care of Nanoha, Yuuno and Arf – the only ones (that we know of, besides the Harlaowns) that could have done more that shout a warning if she tried anything. Lindy should probably have known better than to assume that Nanoha would stay put whilst Precia threatened to destroy her world, but I would not be inclined to blame that oversight on stupidity. Precia attempting to trigger a massive dimensional dislocation had a higher priority (it’s triage – Precia presented an immediate and deadly problem, Fate was a less immediate and smaller threat). More to the point – we don’t actually see what’s outside her door – for all we know, there was a guard there who did shout a warning. In the middle of that particular disaster, I’d forgive the bureau for not following up on her escape immediately.
That said, you were right earlier when you said that sending two squads of low rank mooks against an SS mage who can launch twin dimension-skipping bombardments capable of disabling a TSAB Cruiser and shutting down a battlezone (in two separate dimensions) was stupid. I meant to bring it up earlier – it was one of the two Big Main Blunders by the TSAB that annoyed me (the other one being leaving 6 Jewel Seeds rampaging). Again, though, Context is important. They had to do something (and admitted that they ‘might’ be woefully underprepared) and a slim shot at success is better than none.
That said, I would personally have to expand that statement: Sending two squads of low-rank mages to apprehend a SS rank Mage of proven lethality, whilst the AAA+ Mage specifically assigned for the task stays put, strikes me as terminally stupid. Chrono is stated to be the Athra’s best combat mage – that is why he was sent to confront Fate and Nanoha in his first appearance. It is also the stated reason for him being the front line mage in most engagements (apart from sealing Jewel Seeds after Nanoha and Yuuno ask to help). It is why he was standing waiting for the Coordinates with his barrier Jacket already set up. He should have been leading the assault before the strike team got wiped out – as he himself pointed out: “It’s my job”.
Chrono’s ruthless trick shots – As mentioned above, not the biggest problem I have with this. Still strikes me as horriffically reckless at best. Don’t forget that this is his big first impressions as well (besides him being embarrassed at his captain mothering him). I don’t find it to be a very positive one – not helped by the fact that (unlike Fate) he clearly does not believe in minimum necessary force.
Regarding the Animesuki writeups – Try to keep the Movies and Series separate. There were a few points in your writeup where you commented that you thought something happened differently and I thought “It did – in the Movie”. Another thing to bear in mind, particuarly with A’s – the knights practice Ancient Belkan Magic, whilst most of the Belkan mages we meet in StrikerS use Modern Belkan Magic (which is explicitly described as being a fusion of Ancient Belkan and modern Mid-Childan). Modern Ancient Belkan Practitioners are depicted as being extremely rare, the study of their Magics something of a curiosity (I think one of the Manga mention that 9/10 Mages use the Midchildan system), which would explain why they don’t immediately try to apply Ancient Belkan algorithms to breaking a barrier in the modern day. After noting that it was not an Modern Mid-Childan barrier, they do try to work out what it is before Nanoha cuts the knot. In the final Manga chapter Chrono notes that there are 891 classes of magic that have been continuously documented (presumably more that have not), so it is understandable that initial efforts to decipher the barrier did not use Ancient Belkan formulae.
A’s assessment inbound.
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Only Hayate of the girls is an SS, Fate and Nanoha are S and in A’s I think they were AAA I think.
While they might have not had forces to contain her if she tries to force her escape they certainly should have kept an eye on her through sensors and such, so if she escapes she doesn’t blindside Nanoha and others. And they certainly are not lacking in support personnel.
Arrest of Prescia: Even if they were likely doomed, the agents sent in behaved stupidly by splitting up before Prescia was truly restrained and going to check up on what is behind the throne. You don’t do that in a presence of such a wildcard.
I hope all of my confusions of movie and season were about mistaking first season and its movie and not the second season ones, since I am not a great fan of the second movie.
Would you mind reminding me what were the mistakes I made in this regard so I can correct myself.
As for Modern and Ancient Belkan systems, while Ancient Belkans are rare the Church still has enough practitioners to sustain the traditions since Carim is specifically refered as Kinght Carim and has ancient belkan skill. But even without that considering how similar (identical) the magic circles of modern and ancient versions are, and that apparently they are representations fo the calculations being run, the equations shouldn’t be really strange.
I’m charting this one more under “the lore evolving to suit the writers” than anything else. They probably wanted more characters to use swords and punches and fight in mellee, so in order not to introduce even more Ancient users that were up to the point of A’s allmost nonexistant, they made up a system that would allow them more Belkan fighting and imagery while keeping up the appearance of the system being rare. WHich by the time of StrikerS it definitely was not.
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Okay, so I finished the A’s anime and Manga. The animation feels slightly worse overall but that is mostly (I think) due to the more dynamic action – it is easier to animate two mages standing still and blasting away than two knights trying to hack through each other. This leads to a few shots where individuals appear badly contorted (though the worst appears to have been deliberate, as Nanoha was just standing still). The plot is beautifully paced, and features a number of little hints that only become apparent on the second watching (it has been pointed out to me that the imposters got the colours wrong – because cats are Colour-blind). Looking back, having finished, I find myself able to appreciate the plot as a whole, the loose threads tamed in the conclusion. There’s plenty that is more significant than it initially seems.
A’s builds on and expands the existing lore, with very little contradiction. True, we were never Actually Told that mages had to use circles, but triangles come as a bit of a shock at first (that said, we also immediately know what they are and what they do – they fit with the circles we know, even as different as they are). The cartridge system, as I believe I mentioned before, is a brilliant way of introducing Even More OP Antagonists, without actually introducing Even More OP Antagonists. The basics are readily apparent, even without a detailed manual; it gives the antagonists an edge in power (though not inherently in skill) and features both an obvious weakness to exploit (brief duration) and provides a means for our protagonists to match them (“Please install part #CVK-792 system in order to resolve error”). It also gives the old characters time to show their growth (since the system does not power them up 24/7, they still fight at their natural strength… some times).
The Old Characters still feel like themselves. Yes, Fate has grown from the sorrow and blank stare we first saw, but that is not discarded – she has grown from it rather than beyond it (i.e., it is still there, there’s just a lot more too). Chrono in particular feels more natural. I also liked that they put more character into the Intelligent Devices – in the first season they felt bland, having little personality of their own beyond a motivation to serve their masters (making them more extensions of the latter than characters in their own right). They seem to have grown like the Wolkenritter – they still want to protect their masters, but not just because their programming requires it. They want to protect those they love. I end up caring a lot more about the Devices in A’s – they are more like characters and less like tools.
New Characters are well done as well. We see the Wolkenritter before Nanoha does. We see the book activating before anything else (scaring the life out of Hayate) and then get a few clips of them living relatively normal lives before Vita’s attack. Which she firmly establishes beforehand is motivated by a desire to complete the book – we still don’t have details, but we know that she isn’t doing this for her own sadistic pleasure. As with the ‘Villains’ in the previous season, it would have been very easy to misrepresent them, for them to come off as unsympathetic, but they don’t. The clash, between the Knights home with Hayate and them out on the Battlefield raises questions, but we don’t think that they’re just jerks playing a mean game with Hayate and the TSAB. Coming from the previous series, we don’t need to get to know the old characters, leaving more space for the characterisation of the Wolkenritter (and new relations between old characters…)
The Twins, not so sympathetic. They are good characters, in that they are one of the ones we love to hate. Their motivation is “Daddy said so” – not so different from Fate, actually, but not so well presented. Their methods seem sadistically cruel, rather than necessarily so. Their Goal seems noble, their means less so, and Graham was definitely right when he admitted to hypocrisy. Their revelations at the end made a lot of things retroactively make a lot more sense, so I doubt this was shoved in at the last minute – at the very least, it feels cohesive. That is good plotting, and I do still care about what happens to these Characters. I want them to loose, for a start, and Graham could at least apologise for breaking his promise to Fate (I want to see him admit it). Also, mysterious figures in the background manipulating events (as well as Protagonist and Antagonist alike) makes for a more interesting challenge than the usual “These mooks are as powerful as Last Week’s Boss!” which seems so common elsewhere.
Ultimately A’s has not lost the power to move me – I still feel for the characters, and the setting still feels familiar. Like the previous season, it can still bring tears to my eyes, and Hayate’s scream when the Book takes over gives me chills. That alone places it in a whole other league to Strike.
I’ll always wonder how things would have gone, if someone could have shown the Knights what would happen to Hayate at the completion of the book before they started…
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To Answer above:
We still don’t know what precautions they really took, only that it was not enough. Again, I believe that (in this instance) they made the right choice by prioritising Precia and the Jewel Seeds over Fate. The reverse of when they left six of them rampaging, if you will.
I am unsure why you bring up the mooks separating into two squads. Sending them directly to Precia (I suppose they could have been sensibly assigned to secure the area whilst Crono went for the Boss) was stupid, I admitted it (also one of the two exceptionally stupid moves they made). The only way it could have made sense was if there was nobody better available. Checking the area thoroughly, however, is standard military doctrine – you do not know what your enemy / their fortress has up their sleeve. Leaving Precia unguarded would have been stupid. Leaving the area unsearched likewise. Sending the mooks in to secure her and leaving the Expert twiddling his thumbs… Terminally Stupid.
Confusion between the movie and anime? I was not really making a list, but the first one that springs to mind is Nanoha snapping Hayate out of it. In the movie, blasting the possessed Hayate with the ACS jostled her Dream World, almost knocking her from her chair and stirring her from sleep. Fate shattering her Dream World shattered Hayate’s Dream World and snapped her out of it completely. In the anime, ACS broke the Book’s concentration (causing it’s barrier to collapse) but Hayate seems to have woken herself (Fate escaping shortly after).
If I am understanding the Explanations correctly, Modern Belkan Magic is the Mid-childan system twisted into the Belkan Style (hence the triangles). I could be wrong about that, but the fact that they have Belkan Magic on file would not prevent the equations ‘looking strange’. Going with the Powers as Programs angle, and speaking as someone who works in computers, I can assure you that even the slightest false assumption can ruin everything. Even assuming the assumptions and formulae underpinning the two styles are somewhat similar, it would be like interpreting a German manuscript on the basis of a fluency in English (a language sharing a common ancestor) and a billingual dictionary. You might get the gist, but you could easily get it horribly wrong. It would also be very, very slow.
The main reason for Ancient Belkan magic’s subsequent resurgence appears to have been Hayate and her knights – if nothing else, they represent a valuable repository of practical knowledge for the church and other would-be practitioners to draw on. Zest is the only new practitioner I recall from Strikers (others tend towards Modern Belkan), and I believe that it is stated (I don’t recall where) that the term ‘Belkan Magic’ always defaults to ‘Modern Belkan Magic’ – official Documents specify if the magic system is ‘Belkan’ or ‘Ancient Belkan’, for example. Bear in mind, though, that our view of forces in Strikers is quite skewed – the predominance of Belkan Magic amongst the cast cannot be taken as indicative of it’s degree of use amongst the wider population.
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One great thing in how they set up the Wolkenritter is that the writers don’t keep you questioning on what happened to Nanoha. Immediately in the next episode they say that her Linker Core was drained not destroyed. So she was assaulted not mutilated. And this was great for me because before I learned that I thought that they were TAKING Linker Cores, that is draining magical talent and destroying it in process. Even if they are not killing people that is a LOT worse than they were actually doing. It’s a difference between beating somebody up and beating them up and then cutting of their dominant arm, or destroying one of their senses or something. But no they don’t keep us guessing which if it had been cleared up much later would have left a bad aftertaste concerning the Wolk.
What would have the Wolkenritter done? In one of the versions of the story, soundstages, manga or maybe even the movie (I kind of doubt it since I don’t like it particularly) they are aware that if the Book gets completed the their master will get destroyed, so they plan on getting just the amount of pages that is necessary to activate the admin rights for Hayate (600/666 pages).
If that is not available, they might have still collected the pages simply to ease up the drain on Hayate’s weak linker core since apparently collecting pages helps with that, just so she can live longer. This all depends on the Book working in this fashion.
For the mooks I’m refering to the part where they confront Prescia, don’t secure her in any way (like binding her a lot), half of them leave the throne room to look in the back (leaving the first half at the mercy of unsecured Prescia) they find the body of Aliscia which of course makes Prescia flip out and take both groups by suprise and defeat them in detail. Sure searching the entire room is good, but that is in case Prescia has anything significant in the back that could screw up their plans on securing her. But that was highly unlikely to be the issue since Prescia is allways going to be their greater problem and keeping an eye on her should have been their no1 objective.
Confusion: I did make a note there that I now knew better. I meant did I make actual mistakes in my “review” where I mistook one for another and did not note that that was my previous thinking.
I don’t think I did, unless it concerned the first season.
Sure the equations would have been different enough to not be crackable nearly as easily, BUT they should have been similar enough (again both use the same Magical “circles”, which according to Nanoha and Fate in A’s manga are the visible part of spell computation) for someone to note that and realise that these might be the ancient Belkan users, no matter how strange it might seem. Sure it might probably not help in that situation, depending on how much info TSAB has on Belkan magic, but they shouldn’t be utterly baffled by it.
Again in StrikerS, sure the rise in popularity is probably due to reintroduction of the cartridges and the Wolkenritter, but there are characters of that school shown in StrikerS that were practitioner of the Ancient style even before A’s. For example both Carim and Verossa are remarked to be possessors of ancient Belkan skills and are therefore probably Ancient Belkan users, although both of them are hardly combat mages. We don’t know their ages, but they should be older than Hayate, and if they are they had to have learned the basics of magic from some other Belkan. That is why I say that while the Ancients style, according to StrikerS, was likely VERY rare in general mage population it was still kept alive by the Church. I hardly think the Church that venerates Olivie, in large part for her actions but also for her combat talent, would have let a big part of the Ancient Belkan tradition, their traditional magic system get lost. They might not have taught it to many people (taboo, lack of suitable devices, outdatedness compared to Mid system etc.) but it was still there.
Another potential practitioner is apparently Zest, at least according to wiki and Japanese wiki, but I don’t know on what exactly do they base it. Sure he had the demeanor of an Knight, and certainly knew his ancient Belkan things considering he immediately figured out what Agito was, but I don’t think we ever get the confirmation of it. Certainly I don’t remember it happening in the anime. But if he was an Ancient Belkan user, he certanly would have learned his magic long before even season 1. And again he had to have learned it from someone, meaning the knowledge was out there and available to TSAB, especially since he was a TSAB officer.
That brings me back to one question I now have. Did we ever get an explanation on what is the true difference between the styles Modern and Ancient? Visible, practical ones, based on which we might be able to determine what is someone using. One thing might be the usage of armed device, which from what I gather seems to stand somewhere between Storage and Intelligent devices on the sophistication front with Storage having pretty basic automation while Intelligent having an AI. Armed devices seem to either have a verry basic AI or even only a VI, expert system assisting the user.
Another might be how they do ranged attacks. While both styles aren’t really suited to it, the Ancient variants of ranged attacks seem to rely on imbuing physical objects with magic/spell and then trying to deliver the spell on target by hitting the target with the object. Basically the same idea that they use to deliver magic using their armed devices on hit is used to deliver magic upon hit by an object separated from the caster. Examples: Vita’s metal balls that she shoots, Signum’s sword in snake form and Signum’s bow attack (arrow is here the delivery method).
By contrast, the few non contact attack we see Subaru use in StrikerS, the Divine Buster looking thing sees capable of delivering the magical damage via a beam and while extremely short range doesn’t need a physical object to imbue or physical contact with the target.
This would fit with the idea that magic was first properly scientifically studied in Belka (well if we leave other dimensions that ruined themselves in process leaving behind little to no records, like al’Hazard) and therefore it’s understandable that their magical system is a bit on the crude side (needs physical objects) is meant mostly for LETHAL combat, often times in AMF conditions.
Midchildan system by contrast as a system born based probably on theoretical teachings of the Belkans, but with proto TSA ideas focuses on dealing damage through mostly magical means. This makes it more versatile (no limitations imposed by having to use physical objects) and actual true nonlethal attacks on non protected targets is possible since there is no magical component. Even if Vita did properly set up the spell delivered by her balls to be non physical, getting hit by a fast moving metal ball will still hurt and inflict physical damage.
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4th Dimension Said:
“Confusion: I did make a note there that I now knew better. I meant did I make actual mistakes in my “review” where I mistook one for another and did not note that that was my previous thinking.
I don’t think I did, unless it concerned the first season.”
That is what I meant – there were several points where you mentioned that you had remembered things happening one way, and were surprised by things happening differently. Most of these where, I think, due to confusing the movies and anime.
True differences in Style, Modern and Ancient Belkan: We do not get any detailed explanations that I recall – Modern Belkan Magic is deliberately trying to mimic Ancient Belkan. The underlying Equations are different, but the result is much the same. Given that most of the Mages we see are high level and quite individualistic, so it is hard to tell what is an individual Mage’s style and what is part of the wider magical style they have learnt. This is further muddied by the fact that there is nothing to prevent casters learning multiple styles. We are told that both styles focus on confrontational attacks over long range or wide area spells – not your first choice for a big barrier like the one they encounter. They do note that the equations are ‘wrong’ for a mid-Childan barrier, and start comparing alternatives (It’s later mentioned that there are 891 continuously documented magic types, we suspect Mid-childan and Ancient Belkan are two of them). They just don’t crack the barrier before Nanoha does.
It really is not as easy as you seem to think, deciphering a program in an unknown language. Even if you do know the language, but don’t yet know which of the languages you know the program uses, It takes far to much time.
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I am not saying they should have been able to break the code and the language immediately, but they should have picked up on the fact that these equations are similar to Modern Belkan ones.
According to A’s manga the structure of the magic circle is directly tied to the equations (http://mangafox.me/manga/mahou_shoujo_lyrical_nanoha_a_s/v01/c004/7.html), probably the equations being run. If that is the case the fact that Modern Belkans still use triangles, probably means that the base of the magical computations is very close to the Ancient Belka, only the magic is used to create a more modern effect.
Again I’m not complaining that they should have been able to crack the barrier easily, or even at all. I’m complaining that, given that there are other magical systems on record, Amy of all people shouldn’t have been utterly flabbergasted to realize that the barrier is not Midchildan. And given that they have access to the computers and that they should have Ancient Belkan style on record and certainly had Modern style they should have rather quickly realized that the system looks Belkan.
To be honest, this is not a screwup on the part of As writers at that time. When they made A’s in their mind there was only one magical style, but they wanted to give their new antagonists an air of mystery and alienness, which is why they are using all the oppressive gothic imagery and have triangles with runes crosses and such instead of greek letters and circles. And as far as A’s is concerned the Wolkenritter are definitely unique and no one has been using cartridges for a long time.
Only later when they made StrikerS and they wanted to introduce more melee fighters they added the Modern Belkan style as a way to keep the uniqueness of the Wolkenritter while adding a lot of young melee magical users that use Belkan triangles and such.
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I went back to review the episodes in question to be sure, and I still can not agree with your assertion. We do not know precisely how long the crew were working to crack the barrier before we get our first glimpse of them at work, but it can not have been long – minutes at best. Amy and co. seem to have been using the Computer to crack the barrier – and automated systems don’t generally have the capacity to deduce things like “this barrier is not Mid-childan, it must be Belkan” – it was probably running a battery of standard counter-barrier spells on it (understandably based on Mid-childan barriers) since their stated goal was to overcome, not analyse, the barrier.
When we do see them, Chrono is looking at the equations and realises that they are not Mid-childan (he can not have been looking long, either). This prompts Amy to start worrying about what kind of magic it could be – she does not sound to be panicking, though, more of a “My job just got a lot harder” sort of reaction. Also, in the following episode it is Chrono who points out that the magic was probably Belkan, despite none of the others having been debriefed yet (Fate supports this with a quote); and he and Yuuno brings up a few references regarding the nature of Belkan Magic. All of which suggests that Belkan magic is known and somewhat anticipated, just not the expected standard.
If anything, it implies that the varied ways of magic are somewhat more diverse than StrikerS onwards shows.
Also, whether the spell’s ‘circle’ is shown as a triangle is only going to be part of the equations used to construct it. There is also the nature, number, positions and inter-relations of the symbols that compose it. There is supposed to be a distinct difference between modern and ancient Belkan triangles (at least we are told there is) but not shown for much the same reason that the difference between them for different spells is not – one, generic template used to simplify artists’ jobs (also, level of detail might not be enough). Consistency is better.
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I rewatched the third episode the Chrono’s part and you are right, he does note that It’s likely Belkan magic, but then again this happens some hours after the encounter since enough time has passed for all of the participants to get necessary medical attention. So kudos to Chrono or whatever techie figured it out in the end.
Still, considering their general level of information technology (high enough to produce basic AIs) it’s still strange that a Expert system running the cracking did not first try to ascertain the type of magic.
Then again those equations might as well be the output of it running in guided verbose mode.
I personally don’t remember we being told that there is any difference between Ancient and Modern Belkan triangles. Where does that happen?
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It’s not really that strange – it was intended for tactical use, meaning that every second counts. Why waste time on a Magic Type analysis which will return the same answer more often than not? (also, you are probably right that it was not running without oversight – if the operator thinks it’s running the wrong algorithms they can change that). Strategic Expert Systems do generally analyse as much data as possible before proceeding, whereas Tactical systems tend to operate on a more heuristic approach (i.e., assume the most common circumstance). They simply can not afford the time to verify everything. Regrettably, we seem to lack much solid data on what was actually being done at the time, so any analysis of their actions at the time must rest at least partially on supposition.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make was that the TSAB operatives did not seem quite as underinformed or surprised as you seemed to imply. Note also that Raising Heart and Bardiche, despite lacking any apparent Belkan training, knew the cartridge system by serial number (and Amy did not have to look it up either) implying that the system was still in use (likely as more of a curiosity than a govenment sactioned technology, though) especially when she comments that it is not normally installed in ‘sensitive intelligent devices’. Belkan Magic is not presented as a huge unknown, though it would be fair to assume that the protagonists lack any direct previous experience with it.
I don’t recall where it mentioned the difference between modern and ancient Belkan magic, beyond some of the references to modern Belkan being more closely related to Mid-Childan. Otherwise, they are generally mentioned independently, giving us little to go on. I personally theorise that the shape of the ‘circle’ reflects the overall nature of the Magic (given that both systems favour melee range spells, unlike Mid-Childan which is more balanced) and, further, that ‘Modern Belkan’ magic is Mid-childan formula fed into a Belkan triangle (more-or-less), though I can find little to support or refute the idea.
I’ll let you know if I find a source that specifies better.
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